'women-only' space and the transgendered

Date: Oct 16, 2004

'women-only' space and the transgendered

Date: Oct 21, 2004

My view is that this topic is one that is not specifically a multicultural issue, but that it is just as relevent and appropriate for the broader GLBTIQ community. Therefore, I don't think it is appropriate to try to resolve/address this in a multicultural context. Let AGMC work around issues that more relate specifically to multicultural issues, and take this topic up with the broader GLBTIQ community.

Date: Oct 21, 2004

Thanks for you view Alan. I have a bad habit of reading things too quickly. When I saw the announcement for The Australian Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, Intersex & Queer Multicultural Conference My partner and I (who have been in an an inter-racial relationship for a quarter of a century and seen many changes over that time and struggled through a lot of abuse from both sides of the cultural divide), were very excited and must have been in too much of a rush (rough week last week) to read it thoroughly and didn't realise that it was inappropriate, as you say, 'to try to resolve/address this in a multicultural context.' My profound apologies. I have now read the mission statement more closley....The main aim of the conference is to highlight, discuss, explore and respond to issues relating to sexual orientation, gender identity and intersex status across and within the various mulitcultural communities. We recognise the need to address the issue that there exists diversity within diversity. We know that a conference based on the two criteria of sexual and cultural diversity, will be an excellent way to bring these issues out in the open in a deeper, meaningful way. The Conference will also provide a solid foundation for future projects... and of course I realised my mistake. As a lawyer I feel rather silly for not reading the fine print!

So many thanks Alan, I'll, as you say "Let AGMC work around issues that more relate specifically to multicultural issues" and follow your advice and "take this topic up with the broader GLBTIQ community" as you recommend.

I understand now that the only relevant issues must be ones that either are entirely specifically multicultural or ones that are specifically multicultural and also about sexual orientation, gender identity and intersex status across and within the various mulitcultural communities. Think I've got the hang of it now, of course - the Rice Queen thread had both those elements! I really feel stupid now.

Thanks Alan

Mimi

PS Wouldn't happen to have the number of this broader GLBTIQ community handy would you hon?

Date: Oct 21, 2004

Hi Mimi,

As a transgenered person I thought id have a little input here:

>My topic is on the issue of the use of the terms "women only" or "men only" in relation >to T people.

Its definately a hot topic and im gald you are talking about it

>For instance would an FTM T person who identifies as gay-male be welcome at a "men >only" venue?
Yes most certainly, a FTM is a female who has has gender reasigment surgery to bring his body more into line with his gender. A FTM is a man born with a female body.

>Other permutations follow from this which are too numerous to list (or for one >person to imagine). Many women have fought hard for women only space and >rightly so.

Yes i agree

>Many of us remember the Michigan Womyn's Festival and this very issue. How then >do we avoid the same consequences here? Don't hold back - I am keen to foster >more dialogue between the LGBIQ of LGBTIQ and the T.

Before i "transistioned" I had been to several Michigan womens music festivals. I am aware of the trans camp across the way and see both sides. I think womens only space is very important and i do not activly invade it. I am also aware of women spaces that are trans friendly that is are happy to have MTF's (who by definition are now women) as well as FTMs ( who are men with a female history) Sydneys Gurlesque strip club events are a perfect example of a women only yet tans friendly event (both FTM and MTF) thy run their show and give of themselves so the have the right to set the guldines, just like the opposite end of the scale the michigan womens music festival. I respect both.

I know trans activists fight for the right of MTFs to enter womens spaces and i do, i do with all of my heart understand this, in years to come i hope with education and patiences the right way,the fair way will prevail, right now we are in the midst of a revolution we are all learning and people are angry, people are scared and people are setting their rules. Its all just a time frame, a new born one.

>References to Stonewall as the inaugural moment of LGB histories abound, as they >did last night - but wasn't that a T people event and a T people riot of resistance to >their oppression as T people? Has this been historically revised or erased?

I am not sure what you mean here. ALOT OF "t people" HIDE OUT, SURVIVE have lived in the gay community because this is where they could and do still survive. Trans people come in all shapes and sizes, some do not id as any gender, some as both, some as one or the other. Yes its challenging, its confronting and its hard to grasp.

I am one of those people, i dont understand it myself, so i dont expect you to, but im open to whats going on, and i hope you are also.

All we all really want is aceptance, love and a good life for us and our families.

regards
Juan- Alejandro

Date: Oct 22, 2004

Re Mimi's P.S.

"PS Wouldn't happen to have the number of this broader GLBTIQ community handy would you hon?"

Sorry... not specifically, but I would have thought this probably falls within the area of interest of groups like the VGLRL, or some similar such group.

As for the "interesting Rice Queen" thread referred to in your post.... I am completely steering clear of that one. As a NON-dominant, NON-power play, NON stereotypical, caring, sharing, and EQUAL member of an Asian/Australian partnership of some 10 years (one of a MAJORITY of such relationships I personally know of among my contacts...), I was so completely offended by the presentation in question that I have decided NOT to enter into a thread on that topic. Instead, I will attempt to address it in my own way at next years conference.

Date: Oct 22, 2004

I think that's a shame, Allan, and I would invite you to explain why you're so angry.

I can imagine it must have taken a lot of work, a lot of thinking and talking, to achieve the relationship you describe: equal, respectful, non-stereotypical. That achievement is doubly significant because of the pressures placed on gay men by the community we live in.

My paper set out to highlight those pressures in relation to the Melbourne Gay Asian Scene, by applying market theory to its workings. In this application, Rice and Potato Queens can be understood both as commodities (with market value) and consumers (with purchasing power).

My point was that the sexual racism of the mainstream scene creates a scarcity of white men who'll date asian guys, thereby inflating their market value and purchasing power, depressing those of asian men, and creating a power imbalance in favour of white men who compete on the terms of the scene.

Audience response to my paper seemed to divide neatly along generational lines. Raymond Rich, for instance, read a criticism of intergenerational relationships into my paper. Ironically, I think he supplied this from his own stereotyped understanding of 'Rice Queens', since I don't consider being old is a ground for criticism, and I was considerably more critical of attractive younger white men who behave like "Super Rice Queens."

The paper was intentionally provocative, but it's important to remember I was proposing a /new/ understanding of what the categories of consumption (Rice Queen, Potato Queen) indicate. My aim was to show how cultural critique can help people create space for relationships outside the rules of the marketplace.

It sounds like you have done that, Allan, and if that's the case, you were never the target of my critique. I'm not sure then why you're offended, and unless you're willing to explain why, there will be no chance to clear up misunderstandings or have a useful discussion of our points of difference.

Date: Oct 23, 2004

Daniel

In your first message, posted under my Rice Queen thread, you said, "Rather than turning it into a slanging match..." You have now started "slanging"! I refuse to drop to your level in all this. It is unproductive, and, I'm sure, boring for other readers, particularly those who did not attend the session. As I said previously, I will wait till later, when the papers are out. Maybe even till the next Conference, as Allan has indicated is his intention.

Date: Oct 23, 2004

Raymond, The phrase "slanging match" describes an exchange of insults. I'm disagreeing with what you said, not attacking you personally, so it's not a slanging match. And why not let Allan speak for himself? Daniel

Date: Oct 29, 2004

Dear Juan,

Many thanks for your thoughtful reply. When you write "i hope with education and patiences the right way,the fair way will prevail, right now we are in the midst of a revolution we are all learning and people are angry, people are scared and people are setting their rules. Its all just a time frame, a new born one."

I am in complete agreement with you, a profound revolution of great complexity. We are learning. When Del La Grace Volcano and J Halberstam where in Melbourne they talked with similar wisdom on these issues. Del's self description as "inter-sex" by design and zer paradigms of 'either or' and 'neither nor' as counter normative and interventionist were powerfully expressed in zer photographic work.

Similarly in know of no better discussions and elaboration of these developing possiblities of subjecthood than can be found at FTM International http://www.ftmi.org/ .

And my thanks to you as a member of FTM Intl for keeping the hard thinking going, for pushing the envelopes, for creating new solutions and perspectives as we enter this revolution. I am angry and scared but most people are for one reason or another. The more I reflect the less I am sure of and suspicious rather about the need for such 'certainty'. In that regard I take great comfort in Gary Bowen's writing where he writes about his encounter with 'identity'. I especially identify when he writes "My quest for a technically correct, psychologically appropriate, non-derogatory, easily understood term goes unfulfilled. If anybody can suggest other words, I'd love to hear them."

These are issues that run far deeper than many are aware and we are facing the probable emergence of quite a substantial number of trans teens in the next decade or so who are already emerging, the more we can imagine and anticipate the better. This is a time where great flexibility and tolerance will be needed to be practiced. Even grammar can accidentally damage someone.

Forgive me my Stonewall whinge, its neither new nor original and in hindsite irrelevant if not divisive so my apologies. I watch too many old videos instead of getting out and about.

I do follow your trans-health and Olympc games stuff with interest and I am very glad you think the basic issues I raised are appropriate. But i hope I am open to whats going on and I welcome the opportunity to learn more.

The one thing that has disappointed me has been the lack of the mtf community input in these forums, but perhaps I just missed them - I was taken away from the conference by the untimely death of my father and unfortuately missed most of the sessions.

But I was heartened by your response and agree with you. All we all really want is aceptance, love and a good life for us and our families.

Kindest regards

Mimi