In giving the "Market Forces" paper, my hope was to open a dialogue around the issues I raised in it, so my thanks goes to Raymond for commencing the discussion.  Rather than turn it into a slanging match, I'll wait to hear what other people have to say before I respond in full. 

I would like to raise one small objection to Raymond's post.  In my presentation, I asked tongue-in-cheek whether other audience members had noticed that self-identified rice queens often have a particular 'look'.  I certainly made no claim that all rice queens look the same.

Lastly, I will hazard a guess that Raymond missed the first few minutes of my paper.  In my opening remarks, I explained that my paper outlined an attempt I'd had to make, as a young man dating an Asian guy, to understand the strange dynamics of the Melbourne Gay Asian Scene.  I noted also that I came to that scene after several years dating older men.  Therefore, I can't agree that my paper makes out that dating Asian men is a bad thing, or that my arguments were motivated by ageism.

I have a nephew in a relationship that has many elements congruent to this "Rice Queen" topic but little personal insight. I also wonder if the notion of the "strange dynamics of the Melbourne Gay Asian Scene" implicitly suggests a normative dynamics at work elswhere. For example I personally do not understand the the strange dynamics of the Melbourne Gay Scene or the Melbourne Lesbian Scene - but I know that the strangness I feel is  subjective and due to my ignorance and does not qualify as an observation of a 'strangness' out there, just the realisation that I should learn more until my subjective estrangment and ignorance is eliminated through exposure to debates like this. Which I follow with great interest.

Hope "Market Forces" becomes available on line - perhaps AGMC are planning a volume of all papers - anyone know?

And Raymond thanks for the post - I think a lot of us were taken aback by different speakers at different papers for diverse reasons. And most of us have had moments when we felt shocked or hurt at was was said somewhere by someone. But isn't that the natural consequence of a conference such as this and a marvelous opportunity to express those feelings, such as yours, in a calm and reasonable manner. As you have done so. As have your respondants.

Congrats, keep it up - I follow this discussion with great interest but little knowledge. But today I already know more, this conference is really working well.

cheers

ps

I have never heard the term "Potato Queen" but as my partner is Asian (but objects to the term "Asian" as a catch all phrase for a huge diversity) and I am Caucasian, I am pondering what regal vegetables might serve as a useful metaphors for our relationship and whether we would like to be tagged at all in this manner, especially if these terms are used pejoratively.

But (with all due respect) we are certainly having a lot of fun at home today  trying combinations of courtly titles and vegetables. The term "one minute noodle" just got hurled at me and I don't know whether to laugh or cry or write a paper on Heidegger's suspicion that there really was no distinction between epistemology and ontology. However the term 'Pommy Potato Head' has just been hurled and I must break off from this post to launch a pre-emptive horticultural interdiction . (NB that was a joke).

 

I also don't want to turn this into a slanging match, and had intended posting no further messages until the transcript of the Conference papers came out.  That way it is easier to pin down what someone said and how they said it!

However, I invite you all, but particularly Daniel, to look at another thread on this forum, namely the '"women-only space & the transgendered' thread.  There you will find a recently posted message by Allan Smales who states that he was "completely offended" by Daniel's presentation!!!!!!  For the time being at least, I rest my case.

First I’d like to congratulate Daniel on his insightful, intelligent and brave analysis on Market Forces at the AGMC conference. It’s people like Daniel, who aren’t afraid to stand out and cause controversy, that make a difference in this world.

As a naive young Asian man venturing out into the gay scene for the first time (mind you I’m 21 now, but its been a steep learning curve), it didn’t take long for me to discover what ‘market’ I was participating in. After much contact with gay people (at clubs, parties, social meetings, online etc.) I was left confused as to why the greater population of gay men, especially young Caucasian men, found me unattractive and didn’t give me the time of day. At the same time, I never ceased to attract a great deal of attention from much (or much, much) older GWM’s (that’s still the case unfortunately). Even when dabbling with an open relationship with a Caucasian partner of the same age, I realised that he could easily attract young Asian guys, while my shares were very very very low. I have nothing against older GWM’s and I am definitely attracted to them, but as a young man also attracted to a very diverse range of people, it bothered me immensely when I realised that my selection was limited. I started taking it personally.

If I was fortunate enough to have had listened to Daniel’s analysis earlier, I wouldn’t have wasted so much time feeling depressed, unattractive, ignorant and undesirable. His analysis instills a positive view in me: that there isn’t necessarily anything wrong with me (although I do concede that I am a wonderfully flawed person); there is a problem with the gay scene that I’m innately attached to. Not only did his analysis help me understand the power dynamics of the ‘Rice Market’, it has also helped many of my friends gain a greater understanding of their situations. I find his analysis deep and knowledgeable, but most importantly, I find them EMPOWERING.

For me, the theory doesn’t only apply to attraction and potential partners but also friends in the scene. Being born and bred in Australia and having developed a strong Aussie accent and an appreciation of the culture, I find it hard enough making friends with guys who aren’t Asian or GWM’s attracted to asians (It seems that in this world people tend to make friends with you if they are ‘like you’ or feel that you are a potential partner). Because of my ‘Aussie-ness’, I have the ability to make friends with many Caucasian guys that ‘aren’t attracted to Asians’, which is fine. But I can’t imagine and I’m scared to imagine, how hard it is for Asian guys like me but are new to the country and/or haven’t the best English skills.

I’m definately not bitter and I'm happy to hear the stories of men involved in loving inter-racial and/or inter-generational relationships. BUT THIS MARKET DOESN’T WORK FOR EVERYONE. I do find it strange that particular men are taking the analysis personally and making it all about them. You forget that It’s also about the Asian guys who aren’t necessarily attracted to what’s available to them on the market and are feeling lost and limited. Adam Fernandes, I hear you brother and I appreciated your post immensely.

Carb-free diets are the way to go, eat healthy guys!!

Thanks Daniel, for your insightful presentation at the fantastic conference. I'm quite surprised that the issue has caused so much controversy, but perhaps I shouldn't be.

I guess when someone puts forward an opinion which is widely held, but less often publicly stated (let alone presented at a conference!) it's sure to push some buttons and cause misunderstanding. Let me just say outright that I AM an asian man who has been/am involved in loving relationships with Caucasian men - both older and younger than me.

As I understood it, Daniel's session was an analysis from a personal point of view of the dynamics which exist in the Melbourne gay scene relating to asian guys.  I certainly could relate to the issues raised, having experienced the disgusting power imbalances in some gay asian/non-asian interactions - I don't think anyone could honestly deny that this does exist. I can see it even in little 'ol Adelaide.

I think perhaps that the furore which is expressed in some of these posts here in some part relate to the terms "Rice Queen" and "Potato Queen". I agree with many of the respondents regarding the subjectivity of these stereotyped terms...personally I find them offensive and so limiting. To me they are steeped with negative connotations, and highlight the shallowness of the wider gay community. However, to some they could be terms used with love, celebration and pride. Perhaps it would be empowering for all concerned to scrap these terms because of the misunderstanding they cause?!

However, whether or not you use those "..Queen" terms (yuck!) or not the problem of the structure of interaction which exists still remains. Granted there are so many asian and caucasian men who don't "play by the rules" of the accepted mainstream scene - thank god for that!, and as a "non-mainstream" alternative rockin' queer boy myself, the scene is only a very minute (and infrequent) aspect of my identity. But, I have witnessed (and sometimes experienced) many times the disempowering position that some asian guys find themselves in - perhaps contributed to by a perceived lack of english skills, finances, citizenship, support etc. I remember one comment made about me.. "ooh he's got such lovely skin hasn't he. Asian boys are like that". Hmmmm, well there's gonna be some of that lovely skin of mine coming off my knuckles when I punch your lights out! What a silly stereotype of "asians"! in fact I sometimes have OILY skin

I have also witnessed much bitchiness, back-stabbing and intense rivalry amongst asian men when it comes to vying for the attention of "that cute white guy". I guess it's hard to blame someone for this when they're put in a box and told "you are only allowed to do it this way" - survival of the fittest rears its ugly head. I don't doubt that there are many loving relationships which have developed from this form of interaction, however there are also many which are definitely unbalanced.

I guess I can finish off by just putting forward the view that the "Rice Market" (what a great term Daniel!) only exists when the supply and demand exists. Maybe some guys enter into it as a means of finding support, friendship and love - maybe it's convenient for all involved...but at what price? I just hope the multinationals don't move in on it! haha dumb joke.

Not sure if I've covered all I wanted to say but anyway, CHEERS to all and what a great space to express your opinions

 

Hi Daniel, Raymond, et al,

My partner and I were at Daniel's presentation and I must admit we thought it was in interesting way of analysing and presenting this particular problem. Actually it was interesting that my partner, who is Philipino and not involved in the scene overly much, had not experienced the phenomenon and so he found it particularly enlightening. I am also not a scene oriented person either, but having visited the scene on occasion over quite a few years, wasn't particularly surprised by Daniel's conclusions.

Perhaps because I'm not involved to any great extent in the scene, I didn't find Daniel's attempted 'redefinition' of the term 'Rice Queen' particularly offensive - just interesting. But I appreciated Raymond's point of view at the time and here subsequently and I have wondered since whether the point of offence was the attempt at redefining a term, which (as Budi has pointed out) probably started out as [a fairly tongue-in-cheek?] way of differentiating lifestyles and preferences.

Perhaps the term gathered some negative connotations (even maybe already had them inherent) and was subsequently subverted in a typically queer way to connote something positive by those 'rice queens' outside of the scene who had eschewed the negative behaviour. Perhaps, Daniel, even though you had deliberately restricted your analysis to the scene,you were subverting a term that had already been positively subverted by people living outside of the scene. given that the term exists outside of the secene. This could probably be regarded as a little presumptuous

Having said all that, though, I was discussing Daniel's presentation with a young gay Asian man friend of mine here in Brisbane just recently and he agreed that he (like Gray) has found exactly the same behaviour within the players on the scene, but here in Brisbane, so can offer that as further evidence of it's universality. Interstingly he also noted that the same phenomenon may be witnessed with regard to an increasingly present minority of people from various parts of the African continent who have come to live here.

We also both thought (as did my partner) that this sort of behaviour wasn't just restricted to those who are attracted to people of different ethnic origins, but that it was generally indicative of the sexual behaviour of many men on the scene - and Daniel you made the point as I remember, that you had expereinced something similar as the object of desire of some older men on the scene.

This, it seems to me, already poses a larger problem about educating our brothers about looking past the colour (or quality - right Adrian?) of someone's skin to see and appreciate the person who happens to be wearing it.

Well I'm sure that's not all I had to say, but it will do the for the minute. Daniel, thanks once again for an interesting contribution, it's cetainly fuelled some discussion up here, and Raymond, thanks for your objection, that too, has fuelled our discussions.

BTW, Mimi, we aso thought that "One Minute Noodle" was very funny. I can see that it has all sorts of applications!

Take care all, Chris

hello again,

well, actually they renamed mr. rice queen competition into mr. white lotus competition now because of all negativity surrounding the term 'rice queen'. it was a good night and the winner was kind of good looking... i was wearing my beer goggles when i was there!

anyway, as andrew said, sexual racism in different societies are quite different from what's happening in Australia. back in the days when i was involved with the indonesian gay community (oh it's sad when good times passed you by), i had an american boyfriend and i did encounter many negative slur from other indonesian gay men. they just couldn't understand why i would go for a white man instead of other indonesian gay men.

then again, asian society is not homogenous and this is one important thing to keep in mind. i spoke to someone from singapore and he told me how segregated the gay community is in singapore. chinese singaporean gay men only suppose to date other chinese singaporeans, and the same unwritten rule apply to malay singaporean gay community, indian singaporean and anyone in between. so sexual racism over there is not directed against 'the asian', but more of their different ethnicities and nationalities.

the same also exist in jakarta where ethnic line differentiate one gay community group from another. i never consider it as an issue, i befriended whoever i like as long as the friendship is there. when i was dating this guy people thought that i'm a street worker or a prostitute because no self-respectable indonesian gay men would openly have a relationship with a white man (or so they said). and trust me when i said just because you are white does not mean you can have anyone you like when u visit asia. i guess the image that gay asian men are 'purchasable' is over-exagerated in many western countries for some reasons i do not comprehend.

one thing as well is that, in the past, gay community in asia simply 'copies' western style of gay community because that's the only thing visible for us. but now, things have changed and many GLBTIQ people in asia contruct their own unique community groups that suit their societies and cultures. so being with westerners is not associated with being 'modern' anymore, gay community in indonesia is quite strong in maintaining indonesian way of life and to construct their own unique community and gay identity.

all of these of course are very middle class asian way of thinking. however, as we have noticeds in this forum and any other media, gay asian men are finding a place for themselves in the community without conforming to certain stereotypes or feeling victimised by racism and all. the next generation of gay asian migranst will come from different outlook and perspectives, a positive result from the emerging gay movement and gay identity in asia. they will have more self-confident and they will reject stereotypes. let's all hope that all of these lead to something better.

and why i can't write in a short sentece or two is beyond me...

Hi everyone.

Thanks to those who've posted recently.  Your contributions have made this a much more productive conversation than it was when it started. 

Three posts in particular have helped to bring an important perspective to bear on the issue.  Adam, Gray and Adrian have each written about their frustration and even revulsion at the way the scene works to represent them as sexual objects rather than full citizens.  Compared with that anger and that despair, what are Raymond's and Allan's complaints?  They're churlish and egocentric; I agree with Gray that Raymond can't see this issue is not about him. 

I also appreciate Chris Montgomery's contributions, and his attempt to knit together the different threads in this discussion into a conciliatory synthesis.  I hope he won't mind too much if I unpick them here with some further complications!

1) I don't agree (with Budi and Chris) that 'Rice Queen' began as a positive or neutral term that came to incorporate negative connotations through racist stereotyping and prejudice.  Racism predated and motivated its adoption as a term of abuse or punishment for white men who preferred to date and sleep with members of a sexual underclass. 

Lest you think that a cynical reading of the term, I'd note that even today, it retains that meaning on the mainstream scene.  It carries a little less venom and is often deployed in a jokey fashion (just as sexism and misogyny are perpetuated in jokes, so that objecting to them makes the complainant seem humorless). 

But it continues to play an important role in regulating against cross-cultural attraction: there are numerous men who dip into the Melbourne Gay Asian Scene surreptitiously, and when outside it, claim they're only attracted to white men, lest they lose face with their friends. 

I had my own experience of this last year when I went to visit a friend at the Xchange Hotel (Melbourne's home of Aryan youth and their admirers).  I hadn't been for years, so I was fresh meat, and as a tall skinny whiteboy I attracted plenty of attention, until my friend (an asian guy) turned up.  Then I was severely reproached by the (white) boy I'd been flirting with: if he'd known I was a Rice Queen he'd never have made out with me. 

This reproach swiftly did the rounds of his social network and pretty soon, within the cramped confines of the Xchange at least, I'd assumed the social standing of an Asian man: I was persona non grata, some kind of curiosity, and no legitimate object of attraction.  This didn't bother me too much - the Boy Next Door type can mow my lawn without fear! - but beneath my amusement was the grim awareness that I was being punished for non-conformist attraction.

2)  I agree with Chris that self-identified Rice Queens have reclaimed the term, refusing its derogatory connotations by proudly occupying the space of sexual Other they delineate.  From my own experience with the Potato Gems ("crisp golden outside, light and fluffy inside!") at Xchange Hotel, I appreciate the social cost involved.  But I reject his attempt to reclaim it only for those living outside the scene; the term admits of no such geographical nicety, and the worst Rice Marketeer can lay as much claim to reclaimed label as any non-scene, proudly-egalitarian Rice Queen. 

My analysis does differentiate between the proud egalitarians and the Rice Marketeers.  But the difference is an ethical one, determined by values and behaviours, not whether they take part in the scene.  Although I illustrate my analysis with reference to the scene, I don't restrict it only to the scene.  On and off the scene, there are proud, self-identified Rice Queens, who recognise the racist connotations implied in the label, yet cannot recognise the racism implied in their own behaviour. 

They invoke their open-mindedness about age and race to cover up a lot of behaviours that are profoundly racist and oppressive to young people.  Yes, racist: as Adam, Gray and Adrian identify, "positive racism" can be just as bad as blatant negative prejudice.  Both kinds of racism recognise only a person's race, rather than their full humanity.  I've experienced that myself, from potato queens, and potato gems: it creeps me out.  For asian men dealing with rice queens, it might even be worse, since the rice queen expects to be congratulated for his racism.

So here's the complication.  Yes, I'm proposing a re-definition of the term "Rice Queen", and many proud self-identified Rice Queens may not fall into the area covered by the new definition.  But their pride in that self-identification may shield them from knowledge of how they still benefit from mainstream sexual racism.  Silence and ignorance are essential components of white male privilege: it's taken as the ground against which (racial, sexual, gender) differences figure and are forced to narrate and explain themselves.  Yet privileged speech can effortlessly override it.

(3) And the very same thing has happened in this forum.  We're talking as though my paper was about Rice Queens; as though its natural audience was Rice Queens; as though it's Rice Queens I had to persuade.  That's all wrong.  The paper was about the experience of market forces.  While Competition and Regulation are forces most evident in gossip and bitchiness on the scene, they're secondary to Valuation, which underpins the whole structure.  It affects even people living in long-term relationships away from the scene. 

My thesis was that "sexual racism on the mainstream scene creates a shortage of white men willing to date asian men, artificially inflating their market value and the dating power that comes with it."  Chris, and Allan, if your relationships broke up tomorrow, would you or your partner have an easier time finding a new relationship?  Ask your partner if he knows, if he's not well aware of it, even though he'd rather not be.  That power imbalance is latent in your relationships, whether you know or exploit it or not.  Ask your partner, too, whether he's ever been 'traded in for a younger model', too, and whether he worries that might happen again.  I'm not trying to create tension in your relationships - I'm suggesting the tension may already be there.

The Market Theory analysis suggests that different subject positions (asian-attracted white male, white-attracted asian male) come with radically different degrees of privilege.  My re-definition of Rice Queen did not imply that all Rice Queens exploit that privilege - only that (possibly unrealising) they accept it.  While they may not exploit the privilege, its presence can influence their relationships in ways they barely realise. 

That's why cultural critique and discussions like this, discussions that frankly acknowledge the darker side of the Rice Queen subject category, are so important.  They offer participants a chance to share and interrogate their experiences, towards finding space for relationships and existence outside the rules of the marketplace.  We should therefore resist attempts, however well-meant, to find ways to reconcile our disagreement and maintain the status quo.

Yours,

Daniel

Hi Daniel (et al),

Sorry to have taken so long to reply. I thought you last posting added some very important and valuable discussion to the paper. I'm glad you've talked some more about valuation, particularly, as after I'd thought about what you said, I thought the issue of valuation was one that was missing (although it might have been there and I missed it). Personally I'd like to see the original paper supplemented with this sort of additional material as text notes when it's eventually published as part of the proceedings. But that, of course, is a decision for the editors.

Sorry if my previous postings implied that we should maintain the status quo. I hadn't intended that at all, although I can see how that conclusion might be reached. Actually I'm all for rocking the status quo for a better outcome for all. In my first posting I was trying to understand the offence in the hope that if we could overcome the animosity we might have a more constructive basis upon which to proceed together.

So how to proceed? Daniel, You've talked about engaging in this particular study as a way of understanding the 'rice queen' phenomenon so that you could try and operate outside of the 'market forces' (hence power imbalance) involved and I wonder whether you have thought of some particular strategies to achieve your aims? As I've thought about this myself, I wonder whether there are some general social strategies that we might develop to counter the sexual racisim you've identified as inherent? Some suggestions that others might like to discuss/ suggest improvements upon (and these have not so much to do with just countering the racism against 'Asian' gay men, but all racism, including the 'positive' prejudice toward members of some ethnic groups):

1. That we actively encourage in our private and public lives a positive acceptance of all intercultural relationships and that those of us who are living in an intercultural relationship do so in a proud way

2. That in our private relationships we consciously promote empowerment and value in our partners and ourselves, recognising and addressing as best we can the legacy of our colonial attitudes (whether as dominaters or dominated or even some mix of both)

3. That we personally eschew the use of labels to describe us or our behaviours/relationships: a) because they may become hurtful; and b) because they create an expectation in others and (at times and unconsciously) within ourselves about our behaviour and/or our relationships

4. That we allow ourselves to be open to the possibility of having relationships with all manner of people, not just members of any one cultural (eg. Italian, Greek) or mega-cultural (a la 'Asian', 'African') group, equally affirming each group, both privately and publically.

Perhaps we can't help who we are attracted to, but we can make a decision that we won't necessarily be bound by what may have become internalised stereotypes and we can make a decision that we will be genuinely open to whomever may come along - who knows what riches might be in store?

A good start in this direction was made a couple of years ago by Panther, the moderator of Pinkboard, when he asked those posting ads to steer clear of defining any particulr racial group in their ads, but, rather that posters might like to consider being ope to other possibilities. I thought that was valable at the time and still think it might be valuable now.

Anyway, some thoughts for what they are worth Chris

Hi all!

A friend of mine from our gay men volley team told me about this forum. This kind of forum is new to me, let alone writing papers on such a contentious subject. I guess writing papers and presentating them at a confrence is part of your job/profession. Nevertheless, Daniel, it was a great effort, I gathered it must have been a challenge for you at the conference (and after the conference ).

I have been thinking to myself a lot about this subject since I came out to myself two years ago and "threw" myself to explore my sexuality, to find out the meaning of a gay men, and what kind of life I would have and want. Provided that I live in Adelaide, I have limited options (due to all the safeguards I build around myself). Having said that I have seen and learned a lot in the last two years and would like to lay out my thoughts. I am an Asian and I don't see myself as a "potato queen"

I am just wondering, do we call all the white gay males who date gay asian males as "rice queen" or as whatever term which will replace it.

• Older Gay white males who date younger gay asian males

Generally, this kind of relationship starts off with non-physical and non-emotional dependencies/connections. The obvious reasons being financial insecurity and limited English skills faced by many young gay asian males (who are new to Australia) and the difficulty of financially-stable older gay white males to date younger gay white males. Loving relationship may develop over time.

I would not group these white gay males as "rice queens".

• Gay white males who only date gay asian males

For whatever reasons these white gay males find themselves are only attracted to asian gay males, physically or emotionally or both. This is somewhat the preferences they develop, which I think could be either deliberately or not. Please tell me if I am wrong. Strange enough this kind of preferences (i.e "rice queen" and "potato queen") only strongly exist in our queer community, not in straight community.

I would group these white gay males as rice queens. However, if this is not developed deliberately (i.e. outside the control of the white gay males), I would not judge them as being racist. Therefore, Adam I have to disagree with your comment.

This particular group, which I believe has driven the "Market Force". As someone pointed out, as a result, our gay environment in itself has inherented a risk to gay asian males who develop preferences to white gay males, i.e. being extremely/more vulnerable in their "voyages" and relationships.

The environment is dynamic. I have only been in Australia for just over four years. So I don't know whether the gap in the "Market forces" has been widen swiflty in the last couple of years and whether it has reached its peak. I hope if it has not, it will in the near future. I am hoping and would like to see a stage, where this gap is closing and create a balance in the environment. And this is really up to all the gay asian males out there who have limited their options and think they could not change their preferences. The other way the gap can be reduced is to have more "rice queens", which I see as unlikely. However, who knows... ten years ago, you only saw one or two caucassians having yum-cha on the weekends, now you see many of them lining up at descent restaurants to have yum-cha on the weekends..

I hope I did not go too far off the actual discussions/coverage of this subject at the conference.

Cheers.

 

It has indeed been interesting to read all the respective view-points on this contentious issue. Having not been in attendance at the referred to speach, I cannot rightly comment on what was said or ommitted on this occasion. However, I would like to throw my perception into the pot (and I appologise if this seems at all disjointed or scatter-gun like in approach)...

It seems to me that the majority of what has been said so far is from the perception of Asian men who participate in this "rice market" as we have come to address it. So being that I am a white young (26... I think that still counts as young doesn't it?) guy who happens to have been involved with more than one guy of Asian decent, I feel that my persepctive may be somewhat different, though the conclusion may be similarly aligned, to the viewpoints already expressed.

I had not dated any Asian guys until about nine months ago. The reason for this is chiefly that I was in a long-term relationship of almost four years. Due to reasons beyond the context of this discussion, that relationship ended. Having come onto the Sydney gay scene after a few years of being away, I found that each of the nightclubs had their own specific niche's. And that one in particular seemed to cater to two very specific niches; young asian boys, and old white men. I find it interesting that it has evolved so that these two niches coexist in the one nightclub. It stands to reason that one group (ie: the old white men) is there due to the presence of the other group (the young Asian boys). However, it must also be acknowledged if the former's precense was so repulsive to the latter, then the latter would over time move on, and hence the niche would cease to exist. Therefore it seems to me that in order for these niche's continual coexistance there must be a fair degree of mutual appreciation between the two.

Personally, I do find some guys of Asian decent attractive. Once I had started dating a couple of Asian guys, the term "Rice Queen" started to be thrown in my direction. My natural reaction to this was that I did not like it. Firstly because it makes the assumption about me that I am only into these people simply for the fact of them being Asian, and that the Asian qualities is enough (ie: I'll take anyone so long as they're Asian). Secondly it has a negative connotation to it, as if to say that I am settling for Asian guys because I can't get anyone else. And thirdly because it is such a finite label that mocks who I find attractive and sets them apart as some kind of fetish. I think the problem with the term "Rice Queen" is not its definitive meaning (ie: someone who likes to date Asian guys), but lies in it's connotative meaning which I described above. And it is the connotation that you cannot escape. Amongst white circles it a laced insult. People refer to you as a rice queen in the factual sense, but it is also a way of putting you down. If I have been out on a date, always the first question is "Is he Asian?" To which the answer is sometimes yes, and sometimes no. But when it is yes, it is always funny to them. And I don't get why.

One of the respondants mentioned a degree of infighting within the gay Asian community. I'm not sure if this is general across the whole community, but I have seen it in Sydney, especially amongst the gay Thai community. It seems that the Thai community for the large part is very close. My (caucasian) friend is dating a Thai boy and he has related to me how some of his boyfriends "friends" have attempted to sabotage his relationship. Also a boy that I dated for a short period of time had two of his "friends" contact his parents at home, telling them all sorts of lies in an attempt to have them force him to return home. I don't understand this behaviour, and cannot comment on what drives them to do this, but it would seem congruent with what was discussed previously in this forum.

I agree that part of the problem with the Rice Queen dilemma is due to inequities of (perceived) power and social norms within the scene. Due to this mass generalisations are created and labels are formed which may fit some instances, but certainly don't fit all.

I also think that when it comes to fighting against these misconceptions, it is natural to fight back with your own generalisations, and this is usually what occurs. However this is equally wrong, unjust, and counterproductive. I don't believe that it is fair to say that all so called "Rice Queens" are old sugar daddies after an easy catch. Certainly I am none of these. Also, I don't believe it is wrong in any way to be sexually attracted to one ethnicity. Attraction is not something that can be quantified, and ethnicity forms only a small part of a person's particular look and/or personality. If you are saying to me that everyone has an obligation to consider all races for their potential mate, then equally they should consider all body types (because I can tell you the most villified group of people in the gay scene are not Asians, they are the overweight gays).

So what does all this mean?

Most people generally agree that placing a label on someone is bad. The problem with this point of view is that we communicate through spoken-word and what else are words, other than mutually agreeable forms of expression. The fact is some white guys only ever date Asian guys. And vice versa. Now does the problem here lie in the fact of them dating Asian guys? Or in the labels that we have applied to this?

What I am hearing is that part of the complaint is that some Asian guys don't want to date a white guy that is an exclusive Asian-dater. The problems that I have with this line of thinking are as follows. Firstly, it presents a contradictory line of argument; they lament the fact that the majority of white guys don't want to know them because they are Asian, but also they don't like the fact that some white guys are attracted to them because they are Asian. Secondly, it presupposes that the people who are attracted to them are so attracted due to some kind of Asian fetish and that they are incapable of appreciating their other qualities. Thirdly, it is just plain hypocritical; dismissing someone due to a prejudged and unsubstantiated perception is the very definition of discrimination. Finally, and perhaps worst of all, this kind of behaviour reinforces within the gay Asian community the misconceptions about "Rice Queens" and hence perpetuates the problem.

Now if it purely comes down to the labels, then this is something we can control. It will take time, but it is possible for words to be dropped from common usage. That's how languages evolve. Part of the problem is that the term Rice Queen is not specifically a term used by white guys. I have actually been called a Rice Queen by someone I was on a date with. And this has happened more than once. At the end of the day, it is perhaps a term that is so engrained into our subculture that it is impossible to remove.

Well I think I have garbled enough at this point. I am happy to hear all contradictory view-points and will happily expand on my ideas if I haven't explained myself appropriately.

Thank you for reading the whole way! (Or indeed, reading it at all, since I realise my post comes a long long time after the last one was made)

Cheers,

Daniel.

I'm not responding to any particular quote. In fact, my entry does not stem from any of the complex logic in the preceding posts.

Let me preface this by saying that this whole "rice queen"/"potato queen" issue is extremely sensitive. You can't anger an asian guy faster than by calling him a potato queen or calling a white guy a rice queen. That being said, I encourage everybody to read this with the most objective eye that you can. I feel that raw honesty is better than academic rhetoric used as sophistry to prove a point. I can only write honesty and true experience here.

Let me first say that my experiences are as white American university student. I have no influences that would lead me to admire the Asian race or Asian culture. Although I do not have a lot of wisdom nor vast amounts of experience, the emotional path I've experienced in the past three years has given me the confidence to present my opinions on this topic. I hope that people who have experienced the feelings I have will find even a little bit of comfort.

When I frist realized I was gay at 16, I didn't have any notions of race. I had seen Leonardo DiCaprio on the cover of People magazine, stared at it for hours, and then realized that I was somehow different. It wasn't until I was 17 that I noticed I was attracted to Asian men, moreso than my friends were at least. I will also note that the majority of my highschool friends were white, and they preferred other white guys. In highschool, being gay was enough to feel incredibly "different." The "asian thing" was a fun little fact about me that they liked to tease me about, a very innocent and innocuous characteristic that even made me smile. But things were about to change.

My first serious relationship was with an Asian guy in my first year of university (we say "freshman year"). He was my orientation leader, and I thought he was incredibly handsome. This is interesting, because a lot of previous theory seems to portray the caucasian with more authority in white-asian relationships. Shaokai (his name) taught me how to adjust to New York City, and taught me a lot of life skills. He eventually broke up with me for various reasons. But back to the race topic. He ended up cheating on me with another guy named Anthony. Anthony happened to be Chinese, and for some reason, this made his act more painful. For some reason, I had wished it was a white guy he had cheated on me with. I felt like I was something he settled for, and when he found Anthony, he'd found the Chinese guy he'd always wanted, someone he could relate to, speak Chinese with, etc. That hurt more than words can descrive. I was an outsider again. Except this time, it wasn't because I was gay. It was because I was white. I believe this when I started to feel shame and regret that I was not Asian. You can probably understand that this led to feelings of extreme confusion and sadness. I had lost my boyfriend and began to wish to be something I could never be.

Time passed. I healed. I had begin to let God into my life, and things seemed a lot easier. My grades in university drastically improved. Things were great. I could think of Shaokai with no bad feelings. But I was afraid to love, especially an Asian guy. I told myself that some strange twist of fate had made me attracted to Asian guys. Perhaps I seemed to like dark hair, and I could easily find a white guy with dark hair that would fit that profile. But that didn't make sense. As much as my told myself I was going to end up with a nice white guy and be happy, I had a horrible feeling deep inside that it wouldn't happen. I wasn't sure if that was even what I wanted. Why was race even an issue!?

Which is why, when I had kissed a white guy for the first time, I felt ecstatic. I deluded myself into thinking that I truly enjoyed him. He was very cute. He had soft, blonde hair, and very milky smooth skin. He had a talent for music and lived in a cute part of Boston. I was fascinated that I could be attracted to him. I was consumed with a feeling of "doing the right thing", and "being on the right track". We didn't stay together, though. I was with him mainly because he was white. I was just as guitly as I was when I was with Shaokai. But this time, I was trying to prove something to myself, and hurting someone else at the same time. I was left even more frustrated than before.

After second year, I got an internship in San Francisco. SF is a city of diversity, and there is a huge Asian population. I saw many white/asian couples, and knew that I could study this phenomenon even more. Again, I seem to have an experience that defies a lot of stereotypes. I met an Filipino guy one night who experessed interest in me. It turned out he was considerably older than me. Now that I think about it, I've never been with an Asian guy that was younger than me, but this could be because I tend to get along with older men. I also met an older white guy, who had a tragic story: he had married, had a daughter, then divorced because he couldn't hide his gayness. At 40, he was the emotional equivalent of an 18-year-old gay male. I felt really bad for him, because in this emotional state, he only identified with younger guys. He said he was generally attracted to young guys and Asians. I guess he considered every Asian man young-looking, not sure. I was creeped out by him. At the end of my summer, I was tired of the white-asian "assignment" i had given myself. My single-status had only made me feel even more inept, and I didn't want to deal with feeling constantly not good enough. Then, something very VERY weird happened. A guy had followed me out of Barnes&Noble one night. I was very frightened, and then finally got the courage to ask him why he was following me. Long story short, it turned out this guy was with a friend and they had been guessing my ethnicity. What surprised me was that this white guy was INCREDIBLY handsome. He was built, blonde, and I assumed very successful because he was dressed very smartly in khakis and a cashmere sweater. (SIDENOTE: I am a quarter mexican, which explains my dark hair and olive-ish skin tone, although sometimes my race is ambiguous) It turns out he thought I was part Japanese, and I reminded him of his ex-boyfriend (so he said...another lie) Daisuke. How messed up!?! But this was another chance to learn something!!!!!! I played along. I told him I was Japanese. "Good job!" I said. "Most people are wrong about me! But not you!" He smirked and said, "I knew it." At this point, I can understand why many Asian men hate "potato queens", why they pray that their white boyfriend isn't one. This man only liked me--followed me--because I resembled a Japanese guy. What if I had blonde hair? What if my skin became suddenly pale? I definitely was objectified. After speaking to this guy, he said he wasn't a rice queen, that he enjoyed guys of all races. Later, because the SF community is INCREDIBLY SMALL, I investigated and found out he in fact only dated Asian guys. Most guys were astounded that he had even followed me at all, because he NEVER dated white guys. In fact, he was in a relationship with (no surprised) a guy named Daisuke. I felt confused. How had I tricked this "rice-queen" into thinking I was Asian?? Was my shame at my own physical qualities morphing me into the race I was somehow trying to be? Was this God's way of showing me another persepctive? Even now, I don't know how i feel about the situation. I feel somehow accomplished that he was into me, even though the whole situation sickens me.

Junior year was difficult. I studied abroad in Singapore on a whim, mainly becuase I was tired of America and because I wanted to go somewhere I'd never really thought of. One night, at a bar, I met a caucasian who lived in Thailand. He had been with a Thai guy, who I first assumed to be his boyfriend. Turns out his boyfriend was still in Thailand, and he had brought this other Thai guy to Singapore for a weekend of fun. I felt incredibly bad for the Thai guy, who was pretty much an object, but when I saw him drinking a lot and hooking up with random Singaporeans, my sympathy for him quickly faded. My desire to "experiment" creeped up again. I asked the caucasian why he seemed to be attracted mainly to Asian guys. He smirked at me, as if he'd gotten this question a lot. I felt daring. It was if I was a spy! I had lied and told him I'd never been with an Asian guy, and that I didn't really intend to be either. I had to hear from somebody else what it felt like! This was it!...I might find out what had "happened" to me, why I felt so weird, why I felt like I'd only go after people who'd never be into me. I was diasppointed with his response. He told me he liked to cum by humping guys, and that Asian guys usually had super-smooth stomachs and thus he could do that very easily. His response sickened me. He then had the audacity to jokingly tell me that he'd love to be with me if I'd only shave myself completely becuase I was young and cute enough. AS IF HE WAS HAIRLESS!? I wanted to puke, punch him, and scream at the world, all at the same time. This gay world sucked. On a separate note, Singaporean men were very nice and proper, and I had a great experience in Asia. I remember, however, feeling shameful of myself. Most Singaporean men had great skin, muscular frames from the army, thick gorgeous black hair, hairless bodies, and a very friendly attitude. Here I was again, critizing myself and hating the qualities I was born with. Why was my hair thinner, wavier, lighter than theirs? Why wasn't my skin flawless and smooth? These negative mental processes were the only bad stain of my study abroad experience. What saddened me was that I couldn't appreciate my own qualities. It got so bad that I even had my hair straightened, even though it didn't that much different afterward and it turned out to be incredibly damaging (NEVER GET THIS DONE!) Then I had an interesting thought. I felt GUILTY being with an Asian guy. First of all, I didn't want him to feel objectified like I had. Secondly, I was so ashamed of my own physical qualities that i felt I didn't DESERVE to be with someone with qualities I had longed for and found attractive. I never did really find an answer to this emotion.

So what have I learned from these crazy experiences? I'm not really sure. I've been in a frustrating pit at this point in my life, which is probably why I'm willing to confess all of these personal and very embarrasing memories on some random blog. I know that deep down, no one should EVER feel ashamed of their race. I can't attribute my attraction to another guy from any one thing or experience. Their is no answer as to why I look the way I do, and it is something I must eventually accept. I live my life day to day, knowing everything eventually works out. One day, I will have the questions answered, or at least die trying. It is human to question everything. It's the reason for progress, but also for madness.

I hope my bizarre experiences have related to some of you. I'm sure I've offended some people, and really, I"m sorry. I certainly have no intention, and like I said in the beginning, this is a very sensitive issue. But I'm glad I found the courage to talk about it.

Vryce
from America

   Just wanted to have my say in whole debate thats going a bit too far here.

   I am a 26yo GWM, i dated an asian guy for the first time when i was 20 and since then the majority of the guys i have dated have been asain including my current long term b/f. I don;t find anything wrong with the term rice queen, i consider myself a rice queen and am aware there is a stigma that comes with it but i don't care, if ppl don't like me for who i am and are gunna look at me through the stereo types of the term then i couldn't care less about what they think.

 over the years i have noticed my attraction to white males deteriorate and now find myself almost as little sexually attracted to white guys as i am to girls. This is not a choice of mine, its nothing i can control, its just my sexuality changing, its just what i am attracted to. I wouldn't percifically date someone just because they were asain, i still only date ppl i really like and have to find them smart, nice, easy to get along with aswell as attractive, the only thing is they would i guess have to be asain. If it's racist to only date a percific race then it's sexist to only date a percific sex, am i right? So for all you rice queen haters who are gay, are you sexist for not dating girls?

 All my friends know that i only date asain guys and they(including my asain friends) tease me about being a rice queen, it doesn't bother me, i actually find it quite funny. So pretty much most of my gay friends both white and asian and even from other backgrounds are  attracted to white guys only. So i don't see why it should matter that to anyone that i am attracted to asain guys only.

  In reply to Adam's msg that was left a while ago about not wanting his ethnicity being someone elses fetish, well that's what the gay meet market is like that for everyone, in the gay scene there are a lot of guys of all ages and all ethnicity's who just look at us mainly young guys and see us as meet on a hook, it's no excuse for them to do that but thats the way it is on the scene and you can either shug it off, use it to your advantage or let it get to you which is what you seem to do. I have met many GAM who hate the idea of rice queens even though they are potato queens themselves that i guess i'll never understand, it's like its ok to be a potato queen but its not ok to be a rice queen, oh well thats going off the point i am trying to get accross here. i am not one of those old sleazy men who just wanna f**k young asains guys, most asian guys i have been with are older than me.

     I also noticed a few ppl mention that mixed relationships are more common in the gay community, i would like to see some statistics to support that becouse i see it among the straight community just as much as in the gay scene.

  So i guess in conclusion i would just like to say i am a rice queen and proud of it, i like the term rice queen as well as sticky rice, potato queen or whatever, they are funny i am gunna continue to use those terms so get over it sooks and soz for all my spelling mistakes.                        ANDY 

Garrie,

I think you're blaming the victim when you say "gams" (awful word) "throw themselves" at white men. White men go from hello to ****ing in a nightclub toilet in 10 minutes or less, but it would make little sense to say "white men throw themselves at white men" -- the racial difference sustains a double standard. Given there aren't as many white men around who'll date or **** asian men, when an asian man finds one, can you blame him for taking decisive action to get what he wants? In the paper I gave (the one that started off this whole debate) I said there were two problems -- sexual racism creates the scarcity of white guys, and the scarcity creates rice queens, which i defined as white men who profit from their scarcity and behave badly.

However, I agree with your observations about the increased open-mindedness of younger guys on the scene, and I wanted to ask if you could tell us more about the experience(s) you've had of being 'punished' (with lower social status) for dating a guy who wasn't an 'honorary white' (another interesting concept). Hope you get this message!

Cheers,

Daniel Reeders